Branding with a Buzz: Strategies to Scale your Cannabis Business with David Paleschuck

{Introduction

Host: All right, we're all set, sorry about the delay there.

David Paleschuck: Everything's good.

Host: All right, well, hello everybody, thank you for joining the MediaJel podcast today. I'm your host, chief evangelist here at MediaJel, we're focused on connecting cannabis, CBD, and alcohol companies to compliant cannabis consumers through mobile devices and media channels, at every stage of the customer buying journey. And I'd like to introduce David Paleschuck, CPG branding expert, consultant, and the author of the book Branding Bud: The Commercialization of Cannabis. Welcome to the show, David, how are you?

David Paleschuck: Hey, how are you today? Thanks for having me.

Host: Fantastic, fantastic, how has the new year been for you so far?

David Paleschuck: So far so good, I guess we're three weeks in, but all good, how about you?

Host: Everything has been great so far, just embracing the new year, head down, focused on growing the business and connecting with individuals like yourself, and building the community — so excited to have you on board, and learn more from you and share your insights with all our audience.

David Paleschuck: Cool, I'm excited, likewise.

David Paleschuck's Path Into Cannabis

Host: So today our topic is going to be branding with the buzz, strategies to scale your cannabis business, with David Paleschuck. You've had many years of experience — how did you find your way into the cannabis industry?

David Paleschuck: Yeah, it's been a combination of things along that journey that allows me to do what I do today. I guess, first and foremost, one of the biggest influences in my life is, I used to be a professional skateboarder when I was very young, many years ago, and the folks I connected with in that community are people most people have heard of today, professional athletes, and I stay connected in that realm — but that also led me to go to Parsons School of Design, I owned an art gallery for many years, so today I'm able to leverage whether it's my action sport friends or my artist friends into the cannabis industry, and leverage art and influencers in a way I never thought I would. But, my journey really is, after owning a gallery for many years, and the economy falling apart in the early '90s, I went back to school for my MBA, came out, worked at American Express, Mastercard, then worked on the agency side, supporting Pepsi as they rebranded Mountain Dew into an action sport brand, again leveraging my contacts, and then finally recruited to Microsoft, where I spent seven or eight years, during the launch of Zune, which was their MP3 player, and then into Xbox and Windows Mobile phone. In 2012, when the I-502 law passed in Washington state, and, at the same time, in Colorado — I decided to leave Microsoft, I saw many of my friends in Washington state leaving Amazon, Microsoft, Starbucks, and decided I would leave as well — that was, gosh, just before, that was 2011, so it's almost 11 years now that I've been in the cannabis industry. In some ways I think it was early to jump, but in many other ways I've learned a lot, met a lot of people. One of the things I did coming out was consulting, I started consulting at a lot of dispensaries that were opening up, and one of the things I realized very quickly, because of my gallery experience, is I had a knack for putting things on pedestals, making them look pretty, and charging lots of money for them — I also knew how to merchandise. But my years in the credit card industry also taught me about different types of shoppers — there's a transactor, somebody who comes in for their gas or coffee, knows exactly what they want, wants to be on their way, and other people who are shopping — and that totally relates to a cannabis dispensary or adult-use store, where maybe you have somebody who knows what they want, a pre-roll of Durban Poison, in and out because they only have a half hour for lunch, and then, pardon the stereotype, you have a soccer mom coming in for the first time, looking at the wall of form factors, from flower to edibles, beverages, tinctures, pills, transdermal patches, sublingual strips, trying to figure it out — they may still be wondering what the difference is between indica and CBD, or, worse yet, does CBD get you high. So there are so many different people along the spectrum of knowledge in cannabis that you need to reach them where they are — that was sort of my initial understanding of how I came into the industry. And then, from there, I jumped and worked at Dope Magazine, spent four years there, I was the vice president of brand partnerships and licensing, and I also wrote a three-page article called "Branding Bud," about the evolving brand landscape over the course of the four years I was there, and that eventually rolled up into the book. So, yeah, I've been around the industry a bit, I've been a chief brand officer at a few of the better-known companies, and I love what I do, I love the industry.

Skateboarding, Art, and Credit Cards: Unlikely Parallels to Cannabis Branding

Host: We have quite a story in the background, in art and skateboarding — how are those industries similar to, let's say, the cannabis industry, are there similarities between some of your experience from those different categories?

David Paleschuck: There is, you know, it's funny, there absolutely is, and, on the surface, one could say, of course there is, because all skaters are stoners and they go together — but that's not really it, maybe that's a part of it, but where it really comes together is that there's a community. In the skateboarding world there's a community of skateboarders, they speak a language of their own, they understand each other, they do things that are only known to them, and in the cannabis community it's very much the same thing — so understanding lifestyle, and lifestyle marketing, and how those activities appeal to a certain consumer, totally connects in my mind, and even further, the art community as well. And then, what I've thought about further is, how does my 12 years in the credit card industry, marketing credit cards, connect with this as well — and the truth is, I think of it as trust marketing. American Express, "don't leave home without it," Mastercard, "priceless" — it's connecting with these moments, right, Mastercard's one of the longest-running advertising campaigns, which I was a part of developing, is "Priceless," and what they did was connect the use of a credit card with a great moment, they shared so many moments, but the one I remember was the dad taking his daughter to the baseball game, being able to make that happen because he had his credit card — so those are moments of trust, "don't leave home without it" is totally about trust. And so, on that level, I think cannabis and cannabis marketing falls into the same thing — it's really the essence of what a brand is, a brand is a promise, and the ability to consistently deliver on that promise — so if your credit card doesn't work, and you've got the credit but it's the terminal or the system, you're upset, you should be able to just pay for it. So it's those things you rely on, that you trust, and, often more than not, that's consistency — all of those things tie into, in my opinion, branding, marketing, and, probably more than most, the cannabis industry — building the authenticity, the legitimacy, the credibility, the relevance, all of those things come together, otherwise you're nobody in this industry.

Host: And I really like what you said there about what branding is — a brand is a promise you're making to your consumer, your audience, and it's really your job to deliver on that — whether that's product consistency, are there other ways in the cannabis industry we're really moving this forward, or maybe some ideas of brands you feel are doing a great job keeping their content and messaging consistent with their brand?

Brand Spotlights: Saints, Cann, and Mommy Mints

David Paleschuck: Yeah, I think there are a number of brands doing that, and, before I even start throwing out names, I think the way to create or maintain a credible brand is to understand who your customer is — if you can best understand your customer, you can serve them and meet them where they are, but really it comes down to knowing your customer, their need state, and their ritual. If they're a soccer mom who can't smoke in front of their kids, maybe they're using a transdermal patch, tincture, or capsule — if they're a skater, again, total stereotypes, and they're looking for a blunt, or whatever they consume, you need to meet them where they are. Just a quick side note, one thing I'll never forget is, my son was at the playground playing with young friends, this was a couple years back, I was hanging out with the moms, and one of the moms pulls out a tin and says, "does anybody want mommy mints?" and it was funny, because I first thought they were Altoids, but there's a brand called Mr. Moxey's Mints, and Tim, who owns that brand, is based here in Seattle, so I was totally aware of it, and I started cracking up, and said "mommy mints," and, long story short, they all got embarrassed, and I explained I was in the cannabis industry, so we all had a moment of community. But that was a great moment in terms of a brand connecting with a community of women looking after their kids all day, taking these mints, microdosing, living their life, parenting, but still consuming cannabis — totally out of the stereotype of the skater-stoner archetype I referred to before. So, really, know who your customer is, connect with them at their need state and ritual, which leads to form factor, and then the last thing is that overlay, the brand archetype — what kind of brand is this, what promise am I making, what does this brand mean to me. To answer your question, there are a number of brands that really speak to specific groups — one that comes to mind, in Washington, also in NorCal, also in Oklahoma, is a brand called Saints — Saints joints are boxes of pre-rolls where they work with artists to do these limited-edition collectible boxes. First and foremost their pre-rolls are amazing, their flower is not shake, it's all bud, all the finest, which goes without saying, you need a quality product in line with your promise — if it's a value product, a bottom-shelf product, at least it should align with that, don't have bottom-shelf flower and tell everybody it's the best flower around, which is something most brands do in this industry, "our weed is the best weed," everyone says that.

Host: That's right, that's right.

David Paleschuck: So you just have to be mindful, if you can deliver that, then great, but be mindful of that promise. So it's aligning all of those things, and really where you are in terms of expectations with your customers. In the case of Saints, what they do is work with artists well known in certain communities — Jeremy Fish, in the art-skate community, they did a line of limited-edition boxes with tattoo artists from different states, so people really interested in tattoos and in the cannabis community collected those, there's a real connection beyond, "I'm selling you great weed." On the beverage side, I think Cann does a great job connecting with the LGBTQIA+ community — always a mouthful — they've shown that in their ads as well. Another thing I think they've done really great is talked about the exchange of alcohol for cannabis — one of their ad campaigns is "hangovers cancelled," and "cancelled" is spelled C-A-N-N, because that's the name of their brand — those types of things, they've talked about socializing and sessioning with a new form factor, beverages, in a way that could be interchanged with alcohol. So there's lots of interesting things going on in the industry, people getting innovative, figuring out ways to stay within compliance and regulations while advertising their brand in cannabis.

Host: And, as you said, with the approach from the skating community, making this more of a lifestyle — cannabis is really diverse in that way, you have the people, I saw this at Hall of Flowers, there was a big uptick in almost like a nightlife entertainment category of the cannabis space, front and center — there's always been the health and medicinal approach, there's always been the lifestyle approach.

David Paleschuck: I mean, the cannabis aficionado — there's the health and lifestyle as well, so it's interesting to see how this is all coming to the forefront, and the ads.

Martha Stewart, Snoop Dogg, and Normalizing Cannabis

Host: We talked a little about it on LinkedIn, but the Martha Stewart and Snoop Dogg collaboration, that's a unique one, getting some good impressions and really normalizing cannabis in the mainstream — as you suggested, we joined the industry way back when, before any of this was really taken into account, right when Colorado and Washington were legal, so it's exciting to see the progress, and that brings me to the book you've written, the first book on cannabis branding, Branding Bud: The Commercialization of Cannabis — can you tell us a little about the book and share your insights?

The Book: Branding Bud

David Paleschuck: Yeah, sure, so, first off, as someone who got into the cannabis industry 11 or 12 years ago, I was trying to make heads or tails of what the industry is, and even though I'd consumed for many years, still trying to better understand how to tell my friends back in New York, where I'm from, what's going on in Washington — if they only saw this, they couldn't believe what was going on here. And the funny thing is, when I worked at Mastercard, I spent two and a half years, twice a month, in Europe, and I'd go spend time in Amsterdam, and I'd always tell my friends about Amsterdam, this was years and years ago, and no one would believe me, and now here I am in Washington, ten years ago, and my friends in New York are like, "you're crazy." But what I realized was there was a story, and an industry evolving, and we needed to educate people about that, not only in market but outside the market as well. So the book, in many ways, was sort of my journey, and it's not at all about me, it just explains the things I was questioning, like, why did cannabis, a plant, end up where it is — so the book starts with all these questions about the legal, political, socio-demographic aspects, all the baggage the industry has — why do we call it cannabis versus marijuana, what's the baggage around marijuana, what was the history with the Marijuana Tax Act, and Harry Anslinger, and the anti-marijuana craze during prohibition, and then some.

Host: Madness, right?

David Paleschuck: Exactly, exactly. Why was the person in charge of what was then the equivalent of the DEA saying that marijuana drove colored men to do crazy things, and drove white women to sleep with colored men — that is insane, it's insane anybody could say or think it, but that was the propaganda of the time, so I was curious, what was this all about, and I started to unwind and unpack that, and then got an understanding of why there are stoner stereotypes tied into the hippies, tie-dye, and other things, and I talk through how it came about, what prohibition was about, how it came into pop culture, with Cheech and Chong, and Fast Times at Ridgemont High, and Weeds, and other things that brought cannabis to the fore, and then start to speak about the laws changing, how things changed, and how we got to where we are today. Then, from there, I speak about who cannabis consumers are, and I worked with Headset and a number of other data companies to get some data around this, so I could connect the dots, it's not just me talking or thinking about it, there are things I could use as anchors and hooks. And then, really, the biggest part of the book is the form factor chapter, where I go through flowers, waxes, shatters, butters, tinctures, capsules, beverages, edibles, transdermal patches, sublingual strips, vape carts, and other innovative form factors, and break down what these brands are all about, and then, coming out of that, realizing there are 14 cannabis brand archetypes.

The 14 Cannabis Brand Archetypes

David Paleschuck: I'll run through them really quick — to be clear, they're not mutually exclusive, they often overlap, but these are the hooks brands use to pull you in as a consumer. I'll start with counterculture — one could say, in a certain way, any cannabis brand is a counterculture brand, but there's counterculture, nostalgic, novelty, foodie, regional, health and wellness, celebrity, prohibition, art and design, gender, value, cultivator, luxury, and charity. I'll give you an example — Whoopi & Maya, a cannabis brand I don't think is around anymore, but still a perfect example, Whoopi Goldberg, celebrity, a gender-based brand because it focuses on benefits specifically for women, and there was a charity component too, if you bought something we gave something out. Even the charity or cause brand, there's so many now, whether it's Justice Joints, 40 Tons — there are probably eight to ten social equity brands, but those are the hooks they're selling us on, the things that either appeal to us or don't. It's interesting to see, because that breaks it down from a marketing and consumer perspective, and helps us better understand who we're appealing to, and how.

Host: That's a lot to unfold there, thank you for sharing the different archetypes within the cannabis industry — that's really the starting point, the promise you're making to your audience, your consumer, you really have to speak to them, and craft content, and ensure your values are in line with these different archetypes.

Partnering With 40 Tons

Host: Speaking of 40 Tons, we've actually recently partnered with them, we met them at MJ Unpacked in Las Vegas, same time as MJBizCon, and we really love their story, and we wanted to support them — the inclusion factor, the impacted communities — we offered them a $40,000 grant this year to help get their message out there, and share it with the audience within California and beyond. It really hit home for me, being in California, and just the impact they're making in different underserved communities, transitioning some of these non-violent, ex-cannabis offenders and getting them back into the workforce, building their headshots, their resumes, providing education and tools to get them back into the workforce — it's really messages like that I can get behind, and really draw on that emotional aspect of what a brand can mean in a community.

David Paleschuck: That's exactly right, and that's what branding is all about when it's done correctly, with integrity and ethics — you can bring a brand and its ethos to help a community and better serve a community, that's really what it's all about, that's smart capitalism, that's not just making money, that's helping people and making money, that's what it should be about.

Host: Yeah, and I've seen that a lot in celebrities and influencers — one that comes to mind is Shaquille O'Neal, he made his money in basketball, of course, and different sponsorships, but I remember reading about him saying the money he made is exponentially more meaningful now that he's behind a message and something he's passionate about, helping others. I know a lot of other people are following that path, giving back, so, thank you for sharing that, looking forward to hearing more from 40 Tons and some of the other brands following that same value — shout out to Anthony Alegretti and Brandon over at 40 Tons.

David Paleschuck: That's right, that's right, Anthony's been on my Clubhouse show too, and I appreciate what they're doing, so a big shout-out to them and others like them, because that's what differentiates our industry too, that many of us are looking out for those who came before us, and it's important to acknowledge that.

Host: Yeah, like Steve DeAngelo, Last Prisoner Project, there's a lot of people really making an impact in this industry, trying to right the wrongs made back in the history of cannabis.

The Four Pillars of a Meaningful Cannabis Brand

Host: You consult with a lot of companies in the cannabis industry, creating brands and developing products — what goes into creating a meaningful cannabis brand?

David Paleschuck: Well, some of the things I touched on before — to me there are really four aspects to creating a meaningful brand: knowing your customer, meeting them where they are, not pulling them over to you, understanding their need state, their ritual, how they consume, when they consume, what they consume. Once you understand who they are, and what form factors they use, and when, you can start to talk to them, in a number of different ways — either educating them about your product, bringing them up to speed on the benefits, or those aspirational moments, where they associate with your product and your brand. It's funny, I often think about products in terms of additive or subtractive — subtractive, think of Advil, you take an Advil, you have a headache, backache, something, and you want to alleviate that pain; additive is, you're looking to do something, you want more energy, or it's aspirational, or makes you focus — those are very different mindsets, if you're looking to alleviate pain that's very different from wanting something to take you away somewhere, so you need to speak to your customers very differently. If they're in pain, speak to them in their pain state, how to alleviate it; if they're looking for a lift, or focus, or relaxation, learn how to speak to them and meet them where they are. And then the last thing is layer over the brand archetypes — and I should say, even though there are 14, I don't know if you're familiar with Swami and Nikki from Swami Select, I joked with Swami that he may be the 15th brand archetype, which is spiritual. So, my point being, I'm sure these will grow, they're not necessarily unique to cannabis, but they're the hooks brands and consumer product goods use to speak to consumers, and, as consumers, we should just be mindful of that. A brand archetype is really a shortcut — the best way to describe it, if I played three seconds of country music, hip-hop, jazz, and classical, immediately everyone listening would say, "yup, I like that," or "no, not interested," you could immediately tell, and that's what a brand archetype is, that quick glimpse of a package, a font, a color, something that gives you the cue — again, stereotype here, "this is pink, it's for a woman, it's not for me," or "this is black, bold, macho, this is for me" — those are unconscious cues consumers are drawn to or repelled from, and, as branders and marketers, we should be aware of that.

Host: It'd be a fun exercise if we did this with me, what archetype would I be under in this category — I can give you a little insight into how I enjoy cannabis, and, as you said, adding it to an experience is definitely my preferred use, going on a hike, going to the beach, enjoying music, a live concert, a movie — really leveraging cannabis to expand upon my experience.

Additive vs. Subtractive Consumption

Host: And then, the subtractive, or the kind of negative side of that, would be — I'm active as a person, I participate in a lot of yoga and physical activity, so the other side would be leveraging cannabis and gummies, especially with CBN, for maintaining sleep and also body recovery, providing the CBD to aid in muscle recovery. And I know, just from experience, a little insight — my old soccer coach from high school reached out to me after about five years of seeing me talk about cannabis and the industry, following my Instagram and social profiles, and said he's creating a cannabis brand for athletes, like people participating in high-intensity sports, football, soccer, and he created a topical spray with rapid absorption, especially for knees and aches and pains — the company's called Medusa Leaf, and that's a great example of someone bringing their passion for sport and applying their values to creating a brand embraced by the athletic category of the archetypes. And it's funny how that transitioned — he started working with soccer athletes, professional, semi-professional, and now he's transitioned to the pickleball industry, taking those aches and pains from tennis or pickleball, and secured a partnership with the pickleball association.

David Paleschuck: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting — I know many brands, like Apothecanna, a great brand, started in THC, still in THC, but also sells in CVS and Walgreens and some of the bigger pharmacies, CBD products, and their campaigns appeal to tennis players and others — I personally love that, because I think it normalizes it, and shows people, again, I think lots of education needs to be done around getting people up to speed on the basics, like what's THC versus other cannabinoids, of course CBD probably comes in first, although there's been lots of other cannabinoid development and experimentation, but I think the general public still has a really long way to go in terms of being educated.

The Six-Ring Model of Cannabis Consumers

David Paleschuck: One thing you said earlier too — so when I look at brands and products, I look at the brand archetypes, but when I look at consumers, they're a different model for me, I actually have a six-ring model. In the center there's the Cannacore — probably people like you and me, who consume often and are in the industry, talk about this, live and breathe it. Just outside of that is the Cannacomfortable, probably people who are our partners, or who consume on weekends, that type of thing. Cannacasual is the next ring out, they're okay with it, they're around it every so often, it doesn't bother them, they're okay. Then, as you come out further, there's the Cannaconfused, folks who are like, "what's the difference between THC and CBD?" After the Cannaconfused you have the Cannaneutral, they really don't care, and then the Cannacontra, totally against cannabis. I liken this to, if you had five friends standing around a pool, and one happened to be an Olympic swimmer, and another was terribly afraid of swimming, you'd speak to them very differently about coming into the pool — your Olympic swimmer friend, you say, "come on, this is great, no one's in the pool, join me," and they dive in from the deep end, but your other friend, you say, "hey, I know you haven't been in a pool in a long time, I know you're concerned, come on in, I'll meet you in the shallow end, I have a life preserver for you." You treat it very differently, and I think that's how you need to speak to cannabis consumers as well — either they're an expert, a connoisseur, and it's "let's get down to it," or it's "come on, it's okay, it's okay," and you need to educate them and talk to them in a very different way. I think if people in the industry understood that a little better, that there are different types of consumers at different points along their consumption path, we'd be better able to address some of their needs — and, again, I always say, meet them where they are, don't expect them to join our club right away.

Meeting People at the Shallow End

Host: Everyone uses cannabis in a different way, right, as you suggested, you have the archetypes, but then you have your different consumer types. I remember when I started in the cannabis and street industry, I don't know how long ago now, but I remember the phrase in Colorado was something like "start low, go slow," we had recommendations to not go above five milligrams on your first dose, some of the basics, so people avoid that negative experience — you're not going to overdose and die, but you can definitely overconsume and have a bad experience, similar to a lot of other substances, like psilocybin, boom, you do a little too much and it can be an experience you're not looking forward to. So I really like your analogy, especially with the pool, come on in the shallow end, maybe participate, dabble in a little, see if it's for you, and if it's not, it's okay.

Dosing Inconsistencies Across States

David Paleschuck: What's interesting about that too, just as one example, in Washington state, a per-serving THC size is 10 milligrams, in Arizona it's 50 — so it's five times the difference, and one would think, wow, that's interesting, why is it that way, has anybody given that thought? I think, as much as taking it slow, the states really need to get on the same page. Another thing here in Washington, among other states — if you bought a carbonated beverage, a cannabis-infused soda, in a clear bottle with a crown top, that typically has 100 milligrams in it, that's actually 10 servings — now, tell me what consumer, who's spent their life drinking Coke or Pepsi or whatever sodas, comes into an adult-use store and buys a cannabis-infused beverage, they're probably trained to drink the whole thing — the fact that even the bottle itself has a crown top, it's not resealable, it's not like, "hey, you're supposed to have 10 servings and be mindful of that," but the bottle isn't telling you that, the bottle is "crack me open and drink me." So there's a lot of things at odds with how the industry has come to educate consumers, or, maybe I should say, align with how consumers have been previously educated with other consumer product goods — we need to be mindful of that. I'll say this too, how many people have bought a Hershey bar and know there are tranches, the little slices, but how many people don't pay attention to that — maybe a Kit Kat bar is better, you typically break a Kit Kat and eat it, it's designed into the product — but if you look at a Kiva brownie out of California and see there are a thousand milligrams, with no delineation for what is a slice or a serving, you're going to have some people sleeping for the weekend, who just made a brownie. So I actually do think the states need to get on the same page at some point, and start talking to each other, saying, "hey, we see your dosing is this, our dosing is this, what should we do to be mindful that our dosing is five times more than yours," and other states probably fall into place as well.

Host: Yeah, that's been a recurring conversation I've had educating new cannabis users, a common question is, what is a drink equivalent, like, if I want to have two beers, how would I do that in cannabis and have the same effect?

Using Familiar Language and Form Factors

David Paleschuck: Right, and, you know, what's f— [continuing] — an inkling, or like, "oh yeah, sure, that makes sense, lavender is relaxing, citrus is uplifting," and then these things start to make sense, and equate, and we're not starting over again, not starting from scratch, telling a newbie they need to learn this entire new language. I'd even say this — I drink wine on occasion, I remember when wine was getting popular, and I went to a business dinner at a steak restaurant, we ordered the wine, I had a sip, and everybody there was like a newfound wine connoisseur, and I remember saying — I don't know what the word was, I want to say "peppery," but I used a word just to describe it, even though I had no clue about wine at all, and I got laughed at, because it wasn't a wine person's word. Like, "gassy" — if somebody said, "this tastes gassy," and you weren't a cannabis connoisseur, you'd be thinking, why would you want to taste something gassy — but if you could find words people are already comfortable with, earthy, peppery, whatever, I think that makes it a lot easier than starting off with your own new language, that's harder. I still go into Starbucks today and it's still confusing to me, small, medium, or large — what's a "venti," a "tall" is their small one, totally confusing, I just say I'll take a medium drip coffee, it's too complicated.

Host: But small, medium, or large is something everybody understands, why reinvent it — I mean, trying to make coffee sound better branded, and charge more.

David Paleschuck: Right, yes, and they're creating a unique experience, I totally get that, but there are some things in cannabis that you just shouldn't reinvent, we should use common knowledge, common practice, and best practices to serve it up the way it is. Let me give another quick example — a transdermal patch with THC or CBD in it looks like a Band-Aid, so we need to treat it like a Band-Aid, because people look at it and say, "oh, okay, it looks like a Band-Aid," so they'll peel it open — you don't want to serve that up in a new way that confuses somebody, because built into its form factor is functionality. And, doubling up on that earlier point, if it's 10 servings in a bottle, it should have a resealable cap, it shouldn't have a pop-top — we're hypocritical in many ways, in terms of how we're supposed to use it, but the form factor it gets served up in, we need to be mindful of those inconsistencies, because that affects our brand promise, and the brand promise is a consistent experience.

Final Thoughts and Where to Find David

Host: Agreed, agreed, and thank you again for all your insights — any final thoughts you'd like to share, or a message related to your mission in the industry?

David Paleschuck: Well, I start off always, I'm all about the plant, and then, from the plant, the folks that need support, need help, that have been hurt by the previous activities, or lack thereof, of what the industry has been — that's where I start off, I'm honestly all about education, the more people that understand cannabis, I think the better off we'll be. Initially I wasn't a fan of celebrities, I kept asking what value they bring to the industry, but the answer is, they normalize cannabis, and it's only been in the last few months I've realized that — when you speak about Snoop and Martha, wow, what better way to normalize it, what better way to bring communities together that wouldn't even come together otherwise. So hopefully that helps cannabis, hopefully that helps relationships and relations across communities that just exist, but I think cannabis can do that, I hope it does, I hope we can normalize it, and that's really my mission. If anybody wants to reach out to me, I always love to engage in conversations, you can find me on my website at brandingbud.com, or my email, david@brandingbud.com, I'm always open and interested — my company, Branding Bud Consulting Group, helps brands trying to convey their messages in clear and consistent ways to cannabis consumers, so I'm happy to help, and I hope we as a community can offer those clear and consistent messages, and make the cannabis industry a better place.

Host: Well, thank you again, David, and I have your book right here, actually, everyone — go on Amazon, or brandingbud.com, support David and his mission, getting access to the plant for everyone, do your own research, learn about how you can improve yourself, how you can improve your own brand within cannabis, and get the book — if you need more insights, reach out to David individually and schedule a one-on-one with him, he'll do his best to help you on the consulting side. I guess one question I have before we part ways — are we going to see a follow-up book anytime soon?

David Paleschuck: Yes, actually, it's funny, I have a book coming out this year for the holidays called Cannabis Versus Marijuana, which talks about all the words everybody uses differently, and doesn't fully understand, or maybe doesn't understand the history — we'll talk about cannabis versus marijuana, the black market versus the legacy market, the entourage effect versus the "symphonic effect," we'll talk about all these different things and try to get folks on the same page, that comes out for the holidays this year. Branding Bud 2 comes out April 20th, 4/20, of next year, 2023, and it's already guaranteed to be about twice as thick as the current book, because there have been so many brands that have come out over the last year — right now there are about 54 celebrity brands, and lots of cannabinoid research, lots of new products, new people and brands entering the market, so I'm excited to write about that, that'll come out in 2023. One other thing I just want to say, because it's very important, is that a brand starts out with a name, and a name is everything — and you have got the best name ever, so thank you, I'm envious of your name, and you're here, by the way, I'll add that. So, with that, I see you've got a great start for your brand, you've been doing fantastic, keep up the great work — it's been a pleasure to chat with you, I hope I added value to the folks listening, and I'd love to do it again, I'm always up for chatting about cannabis and cannabis branding, and where the industry is going.

Host: Let's do it, and thank you, David, once again, for sharing your insights, I'm sure we'll have you on again and dive deeper into cannabis branding and beyond.

Closing Remarks

Host: Thanks again, David, and everyone, once again, go to brandingbud.com, support David, reach out through his website, buy his book, set up a one-on-one call with David, and thank you again — wonderful week everyone, and happy new year.

David Paleschuck: Right on, happy new year everybody, thank you, I appreciate it.

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